Fine. I prefer that “insult” to someone who compromises their principles for the sake of power:
What happened or still happens at Caledonia and other Native-held sites has nothing whatsoever to do with the OPP. It is McGuinty, and yes, the feds to some degree, who are to blame. The OPP is supposed to be a-political, meaning that Fantino and his rank and file officers simply did what they were told — and still do. [...]
And, remember, please, not to judge Fantino for the mistakes of others…
“Mistakes of others” my ass…
Mark Vandermaas explains that the ‘just following orders’ defence went out at Nuremberg:
If McGuinty gave orders not to enforce the law and/or to do so based on racial considerations then they were illegal, and Fantino had a duty to disobey them. I had training in my duty to disobey illegal orders in the Cdn Forces, and I would not have obeyed such orders.
But, hey, I’m told conservatives should all support Fantino for the “good” of the party — for the “greater good” of grasping power by any means is what they’re really saying.
Well, thanks anyway, but you can count me out of any “club” that requires me to overlook and even accept the “Good German” behavior which leads us on the path to becoming a totalitarian State. I’ve never been much of a joiner anyway. I’m beginning to think there’s more of a libertarian in me after all. Maybe we’re ready for a Canadian TEA Party.
***
UPDATE: I won’t have time to respond to all comments here, but thanks for your support. I have been harsh on those fellow conservatives who support the Conservative choice of Fantino, and that’s perhaps unfair because everyone is entitled to their opinion. Apparently no one has compromised their principles, but in that case, this is one principle upon which we diverge greatly, because I can’t wrap my head around supporting Julian Fantino.
As to my other comments which have caused such a ruckus… They were simply based on quotes from others who have owned them here and were simply to provide historical context (as has already been explained). Unlike some of Fantino’s supporters who are the ones claiming he and his officers “did what they were told” (in other words: just following orders), I don’t buy that. And if I’m not mistaken, I thought Fantino himself has said that he was responsible for the policing decisions at Caledonia. Regardless of any orders (and I’m not absolving McGuinty), Fantino’s duty was to uphold the law, and I can’t see that he did that. Unless, unknown to most of us, the law had been changed to favor lawbreakers over law-abiding citizens.
Anyway, this issue is kind of a final straw for me. More later…
{ 21 comments }
What are the Cons thinking? Fantino is a man who failed to do his duty and uphold the law and now he wants to go to Ottawa where the laws are written?! and do what exactly?
This man is a disgrace as is the present morals of our “‘Conservative” Government, more and more like progressives/Liberal/socialist everyday.
The world is ready for TEA parties IMO, government policies over the last half decade could have been drafted by children and read like they were, it’s been a free for all at the trough in Canada since Trudeau and a fire sale of resources since Chretien, all the while we pay higher taxes plus ever growing new taxes as our vital infrastructure deminishes and we replace it with public freakin transite that transports no goods, we support the rest of the effin world just to showcase what a big deal we are to ourselves, by providing aid to dictators and then bringing the refugees and economic immigrants here,so we help create the problem by arming the dictators then we rob them of all educated people.. effin ridiculous! same goes for providing food and medicine, self perpetuating problems.
We need Adults in Ottawa that make decisions based on facts and logic not image and emotion like we seem to getting.
Conservatives like you are realizing the truth about Harper & co. a few years to late. Better than never, but still too late.
Nuremburg? Good German? Totalitarian state? Compromises their principles? Your post comes very close to libel, if not outright since you refer specifically to two bloggers and include Mr. Fantino’s name. Be careful Natasha!
Law and order is political. Put your blame where it belongs, at McGuinty’s feet. Why the double standard? Why was Mike Harris eventually held responsible for Ipperwash — and not the OPP — at least in the minds of many, whereas Caledonia is Fantino’s fault?
Libertarian or simply naive?
Ahhh yes, the sophistry of the old Nuremberg defense – and coming from a so-called conservative. Funny how partisans of all stripes are willing to compromise principle for office. Also funny is this person is astute enough to understand the chain of command which links the corruption of Caledonia from top to bottom but she absolves the bottom 90% of any culpability at all. The break down in the rule of law in Caledonia was the result of OPP following political orders which were at odds with both their oath and the criminal code.
Fantino may be just a dummy for taking McGuinty’s job offer expecting anything less than being an accessory to the treachery of a civilly compromised government policy – but from the reading I have done from Christy Blatchford’s account, there was a vast compromise of principle and duty in OPP inaction and there is only one place to lay blame for that – right down the chain of command from top to bottom.
Good lord! The “accommodating conservatives” are threatening legal action! I thought that was the tactic of the Liberals and the Climate Change crowd!
Are you going to call us “deniers”,next?
I made the remarks about Nuremburg, not Natasha,in the context that we DID NOT allow the defence ,”I was only following orders” THEN,and we should NOT allow it NOW!
Funny how some so-called conservatives are willing to back anyone who wears the Party colors regardless of the man’s job performance. Fantino was courted by the Liberals for a good reason,they recognized one of their own. That he turned them down is the Conservatives loss.
Fantino’s duty was to the LAW,not Dalton McGuinty. You don’t understand the difference?! He FAILED to do his sworn duty to the people of Caledonia,period. The Harris case has nothing to do with Caledonia,except both were exhibitions of political cowardice.
Conservative bloggers love to yak on about the “slippery slope” in regards to gay marriage,polygamy,abortion, gun control, but fail to recognize the greasy grass on this. Elect a guy who failed to do his job today,then what will he do in the next crisis? Would Fantino stand against Sharia law,when Muslim activists demand it,or will he take the easy way out and vote the way he’s told?
Principles? That seems to be in short supply these days. We saw a military officer who failed in HIS duty because he was “only following orders” elevated to the Senate for his inaction.
On the West Coast we saw two well trained S&R scuba divers sit on the hull of a capsized fishing vessel while the people inside slowly ran out of air and died.
THEY were “only following orders”,which stated that there had to be a third S&R tech present. The one S&R guy had the decency to choke up and cry on camera that his conscience bothered him.
Now, we see a police Chief who failed to uphold the LAW,which should be held sacred by of ALL people, HIM! And all that he risked was his career! NOT his life!
I was raised by the Greatest Generation,and their parents, the Even Greater Generation. We were brought up on true tales of heroes who sacrificed their lives to DO THEIR DUTY to their fellow man! Names like Hornell, Mynarsky,Triquet,Prince,Smith, Crerar, Valour Road, were part of everyday conversation in our house.
Maybe I’ve lived too long,because today the idea of “principle” is ridiculed, and “character” and “integrity” are quaint words that fail to have any meaning anymore, but “I was only following orders” has become standard operating procedure.
What the hell have we become in this Country.
Natasha, I have learned CPC “conservatives” are just as ready to use the name calling and threats against other conservatives as any Liberal.
well I for one am glad we do not have a police state
Canadian police follow the orders from the politicians
I suspect that anyone of us would have had difficulty handling the situation
the objective was to not cause lives to be lost
and to cool the tempers and negotiate
I suggest we cool our tempers
and choose to respect everyones opinion
everyone is entitled to their opinion does not mean they are wrong does not mean they are right
may the best man win the election
fh
To Sandy who’s accusing M&S of libel
Have you seen a copy of the 60,000 brochures we’re circulating in Vaughan, including to the media about Fantino? It’s called, ‘Caledonia: Fantino’s legacy of Lawlessness & Racist Policing Policies.’
http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/FantinoFlier.pdf
I helped write it and deliver it, including to media and the public while standing right in front of Fantino’s campaign HQ. So, if you, Fantino or any other ‘just following orders’ Conservatives want to sue someone for libel, here’s my address for service. I can hardly wait:
Mark Vandermaas
371 Vesta Place
London, ON N5Y 1G4
519.457.0709
As someone who has on-going libel cases both against Fantino and the OPPA and has actually forced a native publication to admit in writing that it had no evidence I was a white supremacist, and as someone who has probably criticized Fantino on a near daily basis for 4 years, I would like for you to send me an email to info@caledoniavictimsproject.ca and tell me specifically – anonymous Sandy – which quote you and your Fantino apologists think are libellous, and against whom?
Otherwise, stop making silly threats to shut down fair comment on a debate of national importance about a guy who is a public figure. Sheesh, one would almost think you worked for the Human Rights Commission or something.
Free advice: do what many Conservative insiders are doing – start reading. You can start here:
http://helplessbyblatchford.wordpress.com/helpless-by-blatchford-excerpts/
I have to go now – I have to write a post about a heroic blogger named Natasha who took a stand on the angels for standing up against those who willing to sell out her party and Fantino’s victims.
P.S. the reason McGuinty isn’t getting blamed for Caledonia is because,
A. the provincial Conservatives have consistently refused to confront him with the truth about the Ipperwash Inquiry policy fraud that McG constantly uses to deflect their criticism of Caledonia: http://joincanace.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mcguintys-ipperwash-cover-up-full-version.pdf
B. Fantino says he wasn’t following anyone’s orders, so it’s all on him. And, as Natasha quotes me above – even if he was following orders, he’s still responsible because he had a duty to disobey them. Either way, Fantino wears it.
Mark Vandermaas
VoiceofCanada.ca
CaledoniaVictimsProject.ca
ConservativesAgainstFantino.ca
HelplessByBlatchford.ca
re: “I have to go now – I have to write a post about a heroic blogger named Natasha who took a stand on the angels for standing up against those who willing to sell out her party and Fantino’s victims.”
should be…
“I have to go now – I have to write a post about a heroic blogger named Natasha who took a stand on the side of the angels for standing up against those who willing to sell out her party and Fantino’s victims.”
Fantino didn’t do his job on the Caledonia issue… everybody knows that. What happened in Caledonia will always be a black mark on Fantino, Dalton McGuinty, Ontario Provincial govt officers and to a large extent even on the Federal govt for turning a blind eye.
I intend reading “Helpless” and I know it will get more mad and angry at Fantino and nanny McGuinty after that… that’s a given.
What we need to defuze this anger that many Conservatives have for the actions which were not taken in Caledonia and the misery that was wrought on residents there, is for Fantino to come out and tell us WHY and name names of the people who told him not to take the actions which the OPP should have had. We can presume that he got orders from McGuinty or maybe even from higher up in the Federal govt… and he’s not telling.
I am sort of divided on this issue. If not for the Caledonia thing, I would have been 100% for the man.
doesn’t anyone see a problem with the police following the orders of any politican? in order to have the rule of law the police have to enforce the law as it applies to all not be selective about it. if they are going to be selective give me a gun and i will take care of myself.
Mark, dmorris,
I’d like to thank you for supporting Natasha on this. However trivial it may seem, but Sandy’s slight inference to libel, a statement steeped in the expected atmosphere of “libel-chill”, a-la-Warman-sues-BCF can be really upsetting. Bandying about libel for linking to what others write about IS commentary cloaked in threats of censorship.
This type of “libel-chill” is very similar to the tactics which have been employed by certain fascists within the west to close down necessary debate. By simply inferring without qualifying anything above accusations, Sandy herself has employed an Alinsky method here – such a shameful scurrilous display of etiquette.
Sandy’s slight inference to libel, a statement steeped in the expected atmosphere of “libel-chill”, a-la-Warman-sues-BCF can be really upsetting. Bandying about libel for linking to what others write about IS commentary cloaked in threats of censorship.
This type of “libel-chill” is very similar to the tactics which have been employed by certain fascists within the west to close down necessary debate. By simply inferring without qualifying anything above accusations, Sandy herself has employed an Alinsky method here – such a shameful scurrilous display of etiquette
Perhaps Sandy, steeped in the sensitiveness permeating the ideology of scholastic temperament has misinterpreted the application of civility under educational authority and the reality of free speech and accountability.
On a side not, while going in for my haircut today here in KAF, the TV in our barbershop was showing a panel including Rex Murphy hosted by Peter Mansbridge. The topic shifted to Fantino and how he hadn’t appeared at any political events riding on the coattails of his law-and-order record, effectively having removed himself from the political process. Mansbridge stated that he was leading the race. I didn’t get to hear the rest.
Truth or fiction, is Fantino ahead in the polls? If so, is it because he’s avoided public debate by failing to appear and face questions regarding Caledonia?
Thanks for the kudos, means a lot. She deserves the support. Already have a post written, but will wait for N to link to it first; not my place to do so here.
Let me preface my remarks by saying I am a lifelong Conservative Party supporter and was a member of the Reform party, and a former member of the Forces and a veteran of a UN mission in Egypt. (No one was shooting at me though, getting R&R vehicles was our biggest worry.) One of my associates besides Gary McHale is a former Navy guy named Merlyn Kinrade who also served during the 1956 Suez crisis.
Despite our support for the Conservative Party (Merlyn is a card carrying member and a now-former donor) we both agree that we swore an oath to Canada, not to the Conservative Party, and we’ll support whatever party is defending the Charter and the people of Caledonia – and it sure wasn’t/isn’t the CPC.
For 4 years they sat back and watched McGuinty, Fantino and Boniface run an illegal peacekeeping mission on Canadian soil as the cover story for the illegal suspension of the Charter rights of an entire class of people for politically-expedient appeasement purposes, and ignored cries for help from the victims. If the CPC had defended the people and the Charter by ordering an end to it, Caledonia would not have been traumatized as badly as it was.
You and I both know that Canadians are pretty laid back, but when you fuck with Cdn soldiers we fight to win (For people who don’t understand, google ‘battle of the Medak Pocket.’ or ‘Vimy Ridge’). I don’t give a rat’s ass about politics, but I do care about innocent people being victimized while a police force allows the rule of law to be destroyed, and we’re just not going to allow it to happen without doing everything we can to stop it.
1. LIBEL THREATS VS. NATASHA
If any CPC ‘just following orders’ shill for Fantino serves docs on her they better understand that we will go to every legal lengths necessary to embarass them and the party over it within the limits of our abilities.
I’m sure the CPC had at good laugh when I told a senior executive the party should wait for Christie’s book before nominating Fantino, and that we would ‘go to war’ against them if Fantino was nominated. Pretty sure they’re not laughing now, and won’t be even if they win.
If Fantino wins, I suspect it will be the beginning of a terrible time for the party because the Libs are going to hammer it and him, and we intend to help them any way possible. There are a thousand stories yet to tell about Caledonia, including the myriad of discussions about root causes, solutions and the policy frauds by both Fantino and McGuinty in using an illegal peacekeeping mission on Cdn soil and an inquiry that never studied violence against innocent residents to justify the suspension of the Charter rights of an entire class of Cdn citizens.
What happens when media finally catch onto the fact that non-natives weren’t the only victims of Caledonia? I guess the CPC shills don’t care about the 2 women raped on the Douglas Creek Estates (the place Fantino and Lewis ordered their officers not to police) or the native guy who had a hole blown through his arm when a maniac emptied an AK47 magazine into a smokeshack after threatening to kill people on the Douglas Creek Estates. Oh, you do care…so, it’s just the victims with white skin you’re willing to write off to win an election?
? my presentation to 2010 New Directions in Aboriginal Policy forum, Mount Royal University, May 05/10: Listening to Victims: A Fresh Approach to Healing and Reconciliation [21p, 8.5MB, but worth the download time]
http://caledoniavictimsproject.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/100505-mark-vandermaas-new-directions-forum-speech-w-slides.pdf
2. FANTINO’S DISAPPEARING ACT
We love it because his silence and absence at the debate means we are the only conservative voices getting a message out! I guess they figured it was safer to hope the voters were stupid than to allow him to open his mouth to respond to allegations he knows full well are true.
As for the polls, there was a report in the London Free Press very recently that supposed Liberal insiders were telling reporters they were expecting to lose by a “landslide of 10K votes.” I checked with a CPC source inside the riding association who tells me they were CPC plants deliberately misleading the reporters. My source, who is now working for the Libs in this campaign to make sure Fantino is defeated, says Genco has now pulled even with Fantino after being down 20%. Not sure if there’s an official poll that confirms it, but I seem to recall a Globe story to that effect a little while ago, but hey don’t sue me on that!
Have to go, but let me leave one more link for a brother. Hope you don’t mind:
http://voiceofcanada.wordpress.com/2010/06/28/paying-respects-to-sgt-james-macneil-on-highway-of-heroes/
Be safe…please. Mark
When a police force is ruled and directed by politicans, then it is indeed a police state.
I am a true-blue Conservative. I am also a personal witness to the events in Caledonia.
Both Boniface and Fantino were taking thier orders directly from Queens Park.
Neither of them had the balls to either tell McGuinty to go f#@k himself or to resign.
They are both morally reprehensive characters and have no place in any position of trust
anywhere.
As much as it pains me to see a riding fall to the Opposition, in this case petty politics
must be put aside for the greater good. Send a message to the politicans that we will not abide being treated in this manner.
If Caledonia truly was all Fantino’s fault then we should be seeing a big change in how things are handled going forward.
I’m looking forward to seeing how the new OPP Chief cleans things up. Should be any time now right?
No, I don’t feel Caledonia was all Fantino’s fault, but as top cop for the province, he had the power and the duty to enforce the law for everyone. For that reason, he bears the brunt of the responsibility — or he should.
Not likely: Blatchford’s written that Chris Lewis was the one who gave the order not to police the Douglas Creek Estates w/Fantino by his side. A judge ordered Lewis charged with Obstructing Justice for following Fantino’s orders to get McHale charged at the outset of an investigation, and not to “get bogged down with legal nuances” in doing it. Crown dropped the charge just as it did for the charge of Influencing Municipal Official vs. Fantino. Sorry, don’t have time for refs, must leave for Vaughan. See docs at http:www.conservativesagainstfantino.ca in the post stickied to front. Mark
O.K. The question is, what exactly was his mandate from McGuinty? Was it to uphold the rule of law or keep the peace? i.e. Which one was weighted as more important in the eyes of the man who hired him?
I know he says he was never told what to do but you can be sure he would have been hung out to dry if even one native death occurred.
FWIW I plan to read Blatchford’s book. I’ve ordered it from the local library. Who knows? Maybe I’ll change my opinion after reading it.
Natasha:
I’ll repeat what I’ve said before.
I have very little to argue against your position on Fantino, but rather than advising the voters in Vaughan who they should vote against or not vote at all, I only ask who is the candidate on the ballot that best relfects conservative principles.
It’s obvious from your point of view that Fantino is not, so is there another candidate that does?
BTW
Just because you choose to bring this topic up by no means feel threatened or the need to leave because somebody doesn’t agree with you.
I can’t imagine that the Liberal or NDP candidates would reflect conservative values, and I’m not aware of any other candidate that does. Some are recommending to simply vote for anyone but Fantino; if I was in Vaughn, I just wouldn’t vote period. And unless something drastic changes my mind, I won’t be voting in the next federal election.
No, I’m not leaving BT because a few people disagree with me. I told Mark in an email that I’d been thinking about it, because I just can’t support the Conservative party. The Fantino issue is the push I needed.
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